From: Phaedrus 
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: Transcript of Ursula Caberta LMT QA session
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 16:11:52 -0700
Message-ID: <MPG.1415e3017759064898969e@news.supernews.com>

[Comments from transcriber are in brackets like this]
["SB:" marks remarks by Stacy Brooks]
["UC:" marks untranslated remarks by Ursula Caberta]
["UC(T):" marks translated remarks by Ursula Caberta; translation points marked by slashes]
["BM:" marks remarks by Bob Minton]
["[word?]" marks uncertain word on tape]
["[xxx]" marks words that could not be understood at all on tape]
[Time marks given as minutes:seconds in parentheses; for example, “03:30” means 3 minutes, 30 seconds from beginning of that part]
[Most pauses and "uh's" deleted]

[Start of part 1]

(01:18) This letter here is basically a thank-you letter from Antje Victore to one of the people who helped her by writing a letter saying that she could not have a job. And she thanked him for writing a letter saying that she couldn't have a job so that she could get asylum in the United States.

(01:40) Just as a note, one of the things that you have in your packs is a letter from attorney John Merritt[?] to the managing assistant US attorney in the middle district of Florida in Tampa, alerting him to this fraud and this perjury.

(02:00) She's very much hoping that the campaign that Scientology is currently organizing to create a rift between the German government and the United States government will not be successful, and that the United States will recognize, as Germany has, the threat to our freedoms in this country that the Scientology organization poses, particularly to free speech, which has been demonstrated during her visit here to the United States. [Question and answer session begins] [Questions simply marked as "Q:" unless name of questioner given] Q: (02:26) I'm with the St. Petersburg Times newspaper. I was invited last night to speak with some Scientology officials down the street, as well as a couple of local Scientologists, who said-former citizens of Germany-who say there are very real problems with Germans to find employment in that country because of the sect filter and because of how the sect filter is spilling over, not only into public organizations but into the private sector as well. Can you respond to that? UC(T): (03:05) 'Sect filter' is a word coined by the Scientologists. / Because it would mean that there are many, many groups that could be called 'sects' and it would be a [xxx] this filter would be used for that. /

(03:49) This declaration, this issue has been developed in her department, / the declaration that was instituted on the demand of different companies in Germany / These demands from these companies were based on intents of Scientologist members to introduce into these companies technologies from Ron Hubbard. / (04:57) And these type of technologies professed by Ron Hubbard are in contradiction of business management policies and techniques in Germany, and can very well be judged by this lady because she has studied economics and business. /

(05:35) And the goal and aim is, and can be read in the book of Ron Hubbard, / and in the directions that he has written and given, / for members of WISE, / to introduce the ideology of Ron Hubbard and that technology into the different companies in Germany. / (06:11) The ideology is the technology [xxx]. / And that does not stick to the other, the policies in the companies, at least as she was told by management of those companies. /

(06:35) There were several incidences additionally in these companies, that had led to the dismissal of the Scientology members in and employees of those companies. / That had nothing to do with them being members of Scientology. / [Acted?] like Scientologists, / (07:11) but they tried to influence other employees and management to the extent that they became, should become members of Scientology, and eventually the whole company would become a member of WISE. / Many did not want to see that happen. /

(07:44) The analysis of the department has shown that many people came to Scientology because they had been invited into seminars and training workshops, on / communications training. / And that's the same type of communications training that you do in the Scientology, so-called church. / (08:27) It's a way to cross a bridge into Scientology. / And many companies just wanted to do their own business, wanted to pursue their own business interests and did not want to become involved into any Scientology. /

(09:01) So the managers of those companies, these WISE companies, companies that are members of WISE, offer that type of training / without saying what it's all about. / In particular, without mentioning that the aim is that they become Scientology members and eventually members of the organization [and?] church. /

(09:47) These companies came to the department, to this lady, in order to ask and inquire about how to protect themselves. / On the one hand, wondering about how to defend themselves against being subverted by Scientologists in their own house. / But also to protect their own rights and decision-making process, because once you are a member of Scientology and you have these as employees, the whole thinking process changes. And therefore intends to change the decision process in the company. /

(11:01) Therefore we have developed this declaration which members of Scientology or companies may not sign. Must not sign. / And it functions and it works. / (11:24) And this declaration, you will not read the word Scientology. / It only is about the technology of L. Ron Hubbard. /

(11:47) So many companies who want to have their employees participate in training seminars, but not be in the danger of participating in Scientology seminars, / and not become Scientologists, / and therefore and thereby protect their own employees, / And these companies sign and the employees sign this declaration that they will not do and participate in any seminars based on the technology of Ron Hubbard. /

(12:49) And this is falsely being converted into a question of religion. / I've never heard from Scientologists that the technology of Ron Hubbard is their ideology. / Their religion, I'm sorry. / As internally they're always talking about technology, but it's never been heard to the outside in public that their seminars are religious. / So participation in one of these communications seminars being a religious seminar is unheard of. /

(14:14) Two members of Scientology have sued her department / because of this declaration. / And Scientology Germany followed suit. / So therefore it became clear that by going against this declaration which does not mention Scientology at all, [xxx] the Scientology organizations and the members involved, it became clear what the connection is. / The church, the Scientology church, has filed the suit, which is nonsense in respect that nobody will come to-get the idea that they are involved in the communication seminars. / In business [and economics?]. / As Scientology church. / And so there in those cases, and everybody knows that they're working according to the technology of L. Ron Hubbard and they will not be presented with that declaration. / (16:12) And that's the way the court in Hamburg also saw it. / And declined to review that suit. / As non-acceptable. / The Scientology suit is an unacceptable suit. / Those two members have had suit, / also were denied the suit, the demand. / Because the court did not see / that they were hindered by any way in doing their duties and performing their job in Germany. / Because nobody forces them to do their jobs and services according to the technology of Ron Hubbard. /

(17:44) Therefore the discussion around this suit and this issue has not been terminated yet. / Scientology has appealed against that decision. / The decision is pending. It'll be interesting to see what members of Scientology will argue, for communications seminars to have a religious context.

[End of part 1; start of part 2]

UC(T): The building does show 'Church of Scientology'. / However, the companies, WISE companies, do not show that.

Q: (00:37) So when they come for your assistance, these Scientologists who want to get out, do they say that Scientology is a religion, or is it something else?

UC(T): Very interesting and very good question. Because not one of those members… / None of these members has been in Scientology because of religious reasons. / One of the highest former members that left the organization in Hamburg specifically declared that religion has nothing to do with it; it is only business purposes.

Q: (01:49) Could you delineate or identify those activities of Scientology that the German government considers illegal or reflective of political extremism?

UC(T): In Germany the government has to … prove and analyze whether a political organization / tends into what direction, according to their writings and their publications. / (02:47) So these internal directions given by the founder of any organizations to their members is the most important priority to be analyzed in order to judge what they are. / It has to be proven that these guidelines and directions are followed. / (03:17) So you first want to prove… want to analyze and investigate whether the ideology, directions and everything being put forth by the founder and the organization their members may go against the democratic freedom in the country. / (03:49) That has to be seen, also, in the light of the German past, / both West and East, I'm a former West and East German. / (04:02) So you will take a very close look at any ideology that professes the so-called superman, in a type of ideology that's being professed here. And that's an ideology we have seen in Germany before. / We had enough of that. / (04:36) That's a particular area of discussion that may be difficult with American citizens, / because the United States has never gone through an experience like this. / In Germany and in Europe it's a lot easier. / [xxx]

Q: (05:05) What has Scientology done to you personally to obstruct your efforts to investigate the organization? What have they done to you personally?

UC(T): That's not important. I'm not the center of attention.

Same questioner: I understand…

UC(T) (05:26) On a daily basis, something's going on. /Investigation of her whole life, down to when she was born, ten years old. / They investigate, in these investigations they found a person who as a child, nine years old, ten years old, had been stealing a couple of apples in a farm.

UC: Me. (chuckle)

Q: (06:05) Is your department just for Hamburg, or is it countrywide?

UC: Now, countrywide and Europe-wide.

Q: Europe-wide. [Well?]

UC(T): Very close connection, Europe-wide, Germany-wide, Europe-wide, and close connection [with?] France. / Everybody looks to Germany in this matter, but in France things are really happening on Scientology.

Q: (06:40) Hopefully, when the new President of the United States is elected, he won't be so infatuated with John Travolta.

(laughter; someone claps)

UC: Okay?

UC(T): You have a question?

UC: [xxx] I love this.

Q: You referred to the so-called Superman. Is that a reference to L. Ron Hubbard, or to…?

UC(T): Superman is the ideology. / A reference to the book Mein Kampf. / Makes specific reference to the superiority of a person or people. / (07:47) When you read Ron Hubbard's book, it becomes very clear very fast that that's the same type of ideology of superiority. / And in this respect, Germans are obviously much more sensitive to these questions than America [would be?]. / When I read the first time of this RPF project, / it became clear that they would have to have that type of ideology as well. /

(08:46) The discussion yesterday came about that RPF, these types of concentration camps that are possible here in the US, they are impossible in Germany and Europe. / Absolutely impossible.

Q: (09:23) I had asked a question earlier about how Scientologists get a job in Germany, and you ended by saying something about 'only in the Bavarian state.'

UC(T): Bavaria, a federal state in southern Germany, takes a little longer, but when they do things they do them 100%. 110%.

UC: 150%.

UC(T): Members of Scientology do work in various state organizations as teachers and in public offices. / (10:17) The problem is that these people, particularly when they're teachers, immediately start their communications training approach. / And then they find out that parents are not very fond of that idea. / And then you have to talk about it. / So Bavaria concluded, look, to prevent before something happens.

Q: (11:01) Can a Scientologist walk into the tax collectors' office in Hamburg, and if qualified, get a job?

UC(T): Oh, sure, because he's not being asked whether he is in Scientology or not. Anybody can go in and get the job. [xxx] [Nothing you can do?]

Q: And if you find out later that he's a Scientologist, does that mean that he's terminated from employment?

UC(T): No. No way. / (11:29) If he doesn't do his job, but becomes 90% working during his job time in Scientology matters, then… / So that doesn't make any difference to any person who has been employed, and you later find out it's a Mafia person. [xxx] / [It's not a?] general question, it's only the particular case.

Q: (12:10) So are you saying that, if the Scientologist starts to impose their communication technology or Hubbard technology on fellow employees or children in a school, then they lose their job?

UC(T): No. [xxx] / It's not automatically they lose their job, but the matter will be investigated, then conclusions will be drawn from that. / So in Hamburg they didn't have a case, but in other federal states there were some cases like this. But always with something really happening to the children, with the children.

Q: (13:10) Well, in the United States, if a public teacher imposes her Christian beliefs or teaches the Bible on the students, they're fired.

UC: Oh.

Voice: Interesting.

Q: (13:24) I think your answers concerning this whole issue of Scientologists being able to get a job or not get a job is probably the most misunderstood element here. When, if at all, does a Scientologist go into a German company and get refused a job? When, if at all?

UC(T): It doesn't exist like this. In other words, a person-even if they come to a company and identify themselves as Scientologist-as long as they qualify for the job, they will be hired. / Nothing to do with being a Scientologist.

SB: (14:24) We're being told, I've been told by many Scientologists there that have been coming up to me and complaining about my friendship with you, that in Germany if they're a Scientologist they can't get work.

UC (in German): Nonsense.

SB: That's what they're saying.

UC(T): Nonsense.

Q: Is that another lie [by?] the Scientologists?

UC: Absolute, yeah.

UC(T): (14:48) Some people in, many people have come but some she knows, that have been coming over here. / All the people she knows that live today here in this country or in the area, all people that have problems because of tax evasion and other similar things where they have been [sued?] by the courts.

SB: (15:24) And they're just saying, they're just saying, they're saying that the problem was discrimination as a Scientologist. But it's the same as this. [Stacy gestures, apparently towards Antje Victore letters]

UC: Yes.

SB: That she's saying one thing but in fact it's something else.

UC: Yeah. Yeah.

Q: Since you're the most knowledgeable person… [interrupted by UC]

UC(T): I'm happy for whatever you know, because I've seen many people on the streets [xxx] talk to her. / Told her, you know, that they lost their job in Germany and couldn't work there. And she says okay, give me your name and your address and I'll look that you get one over there. / [xxx] [Won't give the name?] / Because she knows that person knows that if she gives her name, then you dig a little bit into it, the story is untrue. / (16:32) Also a campaign some years ago in Germany that Scientologists could not get their children into regular schools in Germany, / nonsense. / She's grateful for every child of a Scientologist that goes to public schools and not attends Scientology schools. /

(17:06) Problem was, you know, that Scientologists wanted to found a school that was run according to technology of Ron Hubbard. / And the laws on private schools are very strict in Germany. / And the states surrounding Hamburg that tried to do it and they were denied their requests because they could not decide, when questioned by the state, what kind of school they wanted to have-elementary school, middle school, high school, couldn't answer the question. / And Ron Hubbard, obviously they couldn't answer the question because they don't differentiate it in Hubbard's technology. /

(18:25) And they went over further north to Denmark, / because the laws to initiate private schools are much easier. / So all children from Hamburg and surrounding states go attend that school in Denmark. / [xxx] / They had to tell these people, these parents that they could be sued under German law, / because there is the requirement that you have to attend school in Germany. In Germany. / So the Danish school, according to German school law, is not recognized in Germany. / So they can be sued by any court in Germany.

Q: (19:44) Well, in the United States, if you want to have a private school, you still have to comply with state law.

UC: Good. (chuckle)

Q: Just like in Germany. But you're so knowledgeable about Scientology, have you been asked to testify before the State Department or any congressional committee in the United States about what really is happening in Germany?

UC (in German): No.

SB: (20:08) In fact, they've refused to let her testify. We've asked them, we've, we've, we've urged them, we've told them her credentials, and they've refused to let her.

Q: And that was in June.

SB: And that was in June.

Q: Congressional [xxx].

UC(T): Beginning of 1998, she had the opportunity to talk to members of the Senate when she was over here… [UC appears to correct "Senate" to "Congress"] Congress members, when she was over here with the respective Congress members from Germany.

Q: (21:01) What is the current relationship between United States and Germany because of what Scientology has lied about?

UC(T): German government as well as the Chancellor clearly follows what the Supreme Court has said, that… [UC appeared to correct the translator's use of "Chancellor" to "President"] President of Germany, clearly follows that line that Scientology is not a…

UC: Religion

UC(T): It is a political organization.

Q: Rather than a religion?

Translator: Rather than a religion.

SB: (22:01) But what's happening, I can also answer you because I attended a Congressional hearing, of the House International Relations committee, which was absolutely orchestrated by Scientology. The entire hearing room was filled with Scientologists, the people who testified before the committee were hand-picked by Scientology, clearly because they all talked about the terrible discrimination that Scientology is suffering in Germany and France. The whole hearing was about the discrimination that minority religions [crosses fingers while saying 'minority religions'] , with particular concentration on Scientology, are suffering in Germany, France, Belgium and Austria. And there were several committee members who have also clearly been briefed, by the Scientologists, and are now demanding several things. One, they're demanding economic sanctions from the World Trade Organization against Germany and France, for their positions specifically on Scientology. They're demanding censure by the United Nations, and they're pushing two bills specifically condemning, that would specifically condemn Germany and France, and Austria and Belgium, for their position on Scientology. Of religious persecution.

Q: And they ask the President to censure Germany.

SB: Yes.

Q: In that bill.

SB: And they've asked, yes, that the President of the United States censure Germany for Germany's position on Scientology.

Q: It's amazing.

[End of part 2; start of part 3]

BM: Going back to another issue for clarification purposes, when you're talking about the technology of L. Ron Hubbard as it relates to a WISE company or its involvement in German companies, I believe you're speaking about the so-called management technology of L. Ron Hubbard.

UC: Yes. But it's all the same. Management technology, [xxx] technology, all the same.

BM: Well, but I think it's important to make a distinction, because there is an educational technology of L. Ron Hubbard as well as a management technology.

UC: But it's the same. All the same.

SB: Yeah, that's the same as…

UC: All the same. All of it. All starts-

SB: What she's not talking about, what they're not talking about, is the auditing technology.

UC: No. Auditing. The courses, all begin with the communication course. It's studying technology, management technology, all the same. Not auditing [xxx]

SB: She's differentiating between admin and tech, is what she's differentiating between…

UC: Yes.

BM: OK. Well…

SB: Administrative technology is what they're talking about, not the auditing technology.

BM: OK. Because when you use the blanket term 'L. Ron Hubbard technology', to me, that includes the so-called religious technology of Scientology as well. And I think you have to be careful to distinguish among those two different…

UC: (01:17) But for me, there is no religion technology in Scientology. Nothing. Nothing. That's the difference. Nothing. There is nothing what-but-that I'm thinking is religion. Nothing. Auditing is brainwashing.

BM: Well, here, in this country, there is a religious element that people see and I-

SB: Well, they've been granted tax exemption as a religious organization. That's 1993, [xxx-UC talks simultaneously] religion.

UC: But [xxx] They are from the US, they are from France, they are from Germany. Nobody told me, nobody, that he feels auditing was a religion thing. Nobody. And I believe the people came out from Scientology. I don't believe the people are telling what they are doing right now, the Scientology people, in. I, for me, all the people coming out to tell me what happened with them in, they are the people I believe.

Q: (02:15) Can you estimate how many people you've talked to that came out of Scientology?

UC: Oh, I don't know.

Q: Was it ten?

UC: No. More.

Q: A hundred? UC: Yes. More. Yes, all and all the time.

Q: Is it more than a hundred?

UC: I think so, yes. [We don't?…]

Q: You don't count?

UC: No, we don't know, any statistic [on that?]

Q: I think you should do that. I think you should…

Q: [Is a?] statistics [xxx] [do some?] Hubbard technology there [xxx]

Q: I think you should also keep statistics on how many Scientologists…

UC: I must do that…

Q: … are working in Germany.

UC: I am doing right now, writing my new report for the Parliament in Hamburg. I have to do it [xxx] [years?]

SB: (02:58) Well, you know, I think it's important to understand also, you know, Germany doesn't really-and neither does France-feel the need to defend itself against these, what they consider to be utterly ridiculous charges that are being trumped up by Scientology. And I think this visit of Ursula's to the United States is an important experience because I think that, in Germany and France, they don't realize that anyone in this country is taking what Scientology is saying seriously. And I think it's important for Ursula to see that in the United States Scientology has made, you know, has gotten a foothold, in people's minds in what they're trying to position themselves as. In the United States, people are buying it.

Q: (03:56) When you have a subcommittee having a congressional hearing as you describe in June, then somebody needs to take it seriously.

SB: That's right.

Q: They're trying to do this PR campaign against Germany and against France based on lies.

SB: And it's working to a certain… it's working. It's working. You know, listen to what Bob just said. 'Oh, but you have to differentiate between the technology and the religious beliefs.' There aren't any religious beliefs. But even Bob Minton is saying it. I mean… [several unintelligible voices] it's incredible to me. [unintelligible voices] It blows me away when you say that.

UC: Hey, boss, we have to [learn?] a lot.

Q: (04:35) Are you here because you're on a personal visit as a vacation, or…

UC: Yes. Like a vacation.

Q: …are you here as a spokesperson for the German government?

UC: No. Like a vacation, and like, to talk about if it's possible to do something like Lisa McPherson Trust in Hamburg too, or in [other places?]

Q: (04:56) I'm still a little confused about when the declaration is used in Germany. The so-called sect filter. When does that come into play? When…

UC: '94.

SB: No, he means-

[translator begins translating again]

Q: When you're applying for a public job?

[UC begins speaking in German again]

UC(T): Only upon request, when [they?] ask for counsel. [xxx] / To protect themselves, private companies come to her department-how can we protect ourselves against what's going on? Then we suggest…

SB: So, in other words, a company comes to your office and says, I need, I'm concerned to make sure that Scientologists don't infiltrate my company?

UC (in English again): Yes.

SB: That's when it happens.

UC: Yes.

Q: What about applying for a government job. Do you have to sign [it then?]

UC(T): The Hamburg government has introduced this declaration in order to protect their employees.

Q: Just the Hamburg government, or …?

UC(T): Bavaria also. / Berlin. / The state of [xxx]… / The discussion goes that the German government may [introduce?] that Germany-wide for everybody who is offering seminars.

SB: But that's not a government job.

UC: No. We don't want… If you know the tricks of Scientology, and the…

UC(T): Very important and very clear to make a point. / From the German point of view, we are dealing with an organization and ideology / against our Constitution. / And it's a public requirement / public necessity and requirement that this ideology not being distributed in any state, any government. / We don't want a Germany again someday / who introduces the ideology of a supreme minority of man. / And we do not want again / any concentration camps / even if they're called, then, 'RPF'.

[someone applauds]

UC: Thank you.

Q: (08:28) I've got a quick question… I was curious if your government, or if there's any type of relief or assistance program that your government may offer to people who are trying to get out of Scientology.

UC(T): There's a network in Germany, / state departments, [government departments?] / and different churches like the Catholic and the Protestant churches, / and private initiatives mostly initiated by former members. / And we have network around Germany where we can help each other. / [Not a program yet?] / She's discussing with the German government, what ways are there to make it a program. / Not only for former members of Scientology, but also for other organizations [xxx].

Q: (10:11) Can you estimate how many Scientologists there are in Germany today?

UC: 8000. 600 in Hamburg.

Q: (10:19) We have some WISE organizations that are very successful, very powerful, very rich, here in Florida. Sterling Management, of course, we have David [Singer's?] organization with chiropractors. We have Concerned Businessmen. That's a front organization, a political organization that is trying to gain political strength. And you have Applied Scholastics. Are all those effective in Germany, and do our local organizations have any impact throughout the world?

UC(T): Yes, they have tried to do it, but in Germany not very successfully. / WISE groups are also only the front shell, in order to break into society and break it up.

Q: (11:29) Okay, like David Singer, with his organization-chiropractic. He contributed tremendous amounts of money to the defeat of our former mayor, [Rita Garvey?]. And he was unsuccessful, his money went down the drain, but they're throwing money at her campaign, and they have been very active in this latest referendum on July 11 with the Scientologists have everything at stake. If they had won, we would have built the playground for them here at the Coachman Park, there would have been no stopping them. But now, I think that they've suffered a tremendous political defeat, and with the firing of the city manager, I don't know that they'll ever be able in our generation to achieve what they had achieved up till now. They'll… They've taken a terrific political defeat.

Q: (12:36) I've got one… I'm sorry, I've got one last question. And this might be rather sensitive, but are you aware of any investigations by your government police or any political investigations-private investigations-into the death of a Scientologist trying to leave Scientology, similar to the death of Lisa McPherson? Or an imprisonment, similar to her?

UC: No. In this form, not, no. Oh, we have a lot of deaths in members of Scientology, but no. Not like this.

Q: A lot of deaths of members of the Church of Scientology?

UC(T): [xxx] You can't prove it, you know, but all of a sudden you find these dead Scientologists in the street in Hamburg.

Q: Dead on the street?

[UC gestures]

Q: Shot?

[UC nods]

Q: Shot.

UC(T): There was one lady found on the street, [xxx], she had some court action against her, and she was-I don't know what you call it-cut open and…

Q: Cut.

UC(T): And they found it on her, in particular they found a liver as big as only, only the worst alcoholics have. / (14:28) It was kind of unexplainable to the prosecutor, because supposedly they don't drink any alcohol. / [Must be?] a connection with all the tablets and all the different type of strange diets they have. / Very similar case in Bavaria, / same symptoms [xxx] / So it's very clear [xxx] and it has been proven before that practices by Scientologists are very unhealthy.

SB: (15:34)We're gonna end now, and everybody can have some coffee, [xxx] refreshments…

Voice: Thank you.

[applause]

[end of part 3; end of transcript]